Curse

Evilsod · Jun 06, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

You do understand Rangers can keep up +33%Attack AND Movement speed and spam hammer attacks all they want almost never running out of energy, right? I'm confused as how that's comparable to a warrior thumper(other than you know, some extra armor)

No... a ranger can't. Kill off his pet a few times taking it to 60dp and it'll die that frequently he'll need to keep ressing it to use RaO. RaO thumper is ridiculously energy intensive.

Quote:

Warriors have a low amount of energy for a reason. Zealous = Worst Mod

EDIT

And if you must have energy, use Warriors Endurance...or go play an ele!

I think that post has just lost all benefit of the doubt you'll get in this thread...

B E A S T · Jun 06, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

>_>

Shield's up? steady stancers? KD/AS (sucks now)? IWAY? All the strength skills...

All cost relatively low energy, therefore rendering zealous useless.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 06, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I would just like to say that sundering isn't vastly inferior to vampiric, they have different uses. You are totally correct when you say that vampiric is better versus prot and as pressure. However, a lot of getting kills in PvP is about surprising your opponent with large packet damage. Lots of times, having a little less damage is worth the chance of surprising a monk by chaining a critical bull's strike into a sundering critical eviscerate for massive spike damage. It's those kinds of random spikes that really get the kills.

B E A S T · Jun 06, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I think that post has just lost all benefit of the doubt you'll get in this thread...

...O Rly?

Explain to me...how so?

Every single strength skill except Dwarven Battle Stance, Headbutt and Warriors Cunning cost 5 energy.

If u need to use that much energy, there are plenty of better alternatives, like oh, Glads Armor, Warriors Endurance.

Warriors have adrenaline for a reason.

Nontheless, if you want to spam energy skills be my guest, but I find I have plenty of energy for the skills I use in my builds (defensive stance, sprint, shield bash etc.)

ArKaiN · Jun 06, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

No... a ranger can't. Kill off his pet a few times taking it to 60dp and it'll die that frequently he'll need to keep ressing it to use RaO. RaO thumper is ridiculously energy intensive.

Oh, I agree it's energy intensive. I also think that it's better than any warrior-based thumper build i've ever seen in therms of pure pressure. 2 energy attacks=not hard to spam.
Btw, ever seen how many people in RA/TA go for the pets?

fenix · Jun 06, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Sundering + Crit gets kills, not the extra 3 or 5 from Vampiric. I use Sundering as primary weapon (Hammer and Axe only) with Vamp and Elemental as swaps, and Furious instead of Sundering for sword.

Isil`Zha · Jun 06, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Sundering + Crit gets kills, not the extra 3 or 5 from Vampiric. I use Sundering as primary weapon (Hammer and Axe only) with Vamp and Elemental as swaps, and Furious instead of Sundering for sword.

Exactly, this was going to be my next point. A critical sundering hurts. Meanwhile the biggest counter-advantage vamp has is what.. getting "through" RoF? So you hit for 20 damage, which is negated and your target is healed for 20 and your vamp goes through for 3 damage... your target just gained 17 health.

Oni-Claire · Jun 06, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I use a lot of str near 15 when i use headbutt i make 100 dmg armor ignoring and u hit always.
I also use for farm defy pain and it will give me 300 hp and + 20 armor enar always in fight also use it for a my special fow farm war/mo.
Anyway if u don't use a str elite i think is very useless have over then 9. prob they have to fit the 1% sundering each level and put it for all war attack :S

pingu666 · Jun 07, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

i think it boils down to watch yourself.

back in the day people ran tatics mostly for...

1)stances. ewwww

2) heal sig

3) watch yourself

4)other skills

but now stances suck, theres lions comfort, and theres similer utlilty skills in the strength line too

so it comes down to watch yourself

B E A S T · Jun 07, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

so it comes down to watch yourself

or defensive stance

blue.rellik · Jun 09, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Sundering + Crit gets kills, not the extra 3 or 5 from Vampiric. I use Sundering as primary weapon (Hammer and Axe only) with Vamp and Elemental as swaps, and Furious instead of Sundering for sword.

Oh because you can make the chance to sunder happen whenever you want right?

Stealthc · Jun 09, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

If you're relying on a random chance to get your kills through spike damage as a warrior, you're not exactly the best warrior in the world.

On the strength issue I would generally run enough to meet the 3 adrenaline break point for Enraging Charge, getting 4 adrenaline on the board straight away can really help out.

Even then a lot of strength skills are pretty useless.

RotteN · Jun 09, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by B E A S T

All cost relatively low energy, therefore rendering zealous useless.

i can easely run out of energy with one one energy skill on my bar : frenzy.

If you activate/cancel often (and you realy should) just frenzy is quite energy heavy already.

claiming zealous is useless is plain stupidity in other words.

Risa · Jun 09, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Relying on chance to kill (sundering) shouldn't even be debated against a straight increase in your damage to each attack. (vampiric) A "calculator" may say that sundering will deal close to the same amount of damage...However, why deal with chance when a better alternative exists? Also...20% armor loss on a caster = 48...which isn't such a huge amount of damage as one may expect.

phool · Jun 09, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

zealous is incredible. If you consider it as taking your regen from 2 to 4 (optimum circumstances, unlikely outside of pve) that's an extra power attack every 7.5 seconds. +35/7.5=+4.6 average damage. This is a simple example and won't always apply but I feel it's a pretty good indicator. It also means more frenzy, perhaps more dash (which is kinda indirectly more frenzy), perhaps more bull's/prot strikes, etc.

sundering is underated in pvp by the majority simply because it boosts dps poorly. For pve, it sucks, no questions asked, due to minimal anti-melee, minimal kiting and crap monks. There is no situation where sundering is the mod of choice because dps owns all and vamp >>> sundering. Even with scythes/hammers. For pvp, it's still a higher increase in dps than sundering of course, however with the decreased rate of successful attacks from wards/blind/snares/miss hexes/faintheartedness/kiting/etc. you will in fact generally be pressuring your own team by more than the increase in pressure on the enemy vs an alternative weapon mod. It's slight but regardless, you don't want it. Vamp has another major disadvantage over sundering, it tells your target what damage type your weapon is. This means they can confidently select their +10AL vs X shield; if you use sundering they have no idea whether you're running an elemental weapon or not. Finally there's the issue fenix touched upon, that predictable dps doesn't kill people nearly as often as big lucky sundering crits do. People die when you get lucky twice in a row on that's bull's->whatever for a nice +30 damage, they don't die when you do an extra 3-5 damage every 1-2 seconds. Only when you're completely wiping the floor with the other team anyway in which case it's not really an issue.

Now furious. Furious is basically +1 adrenaline every 10 hits, assuming you're not stacking it with something. If we take a very generous example of a bar with standing slash (with pre-requisite met), galrath slash and quivering blade at 15 sword that's a 10% of being 17% closer to a +40 damage and 12.5% closer to another +40 damage and 25% closer to a final +40 damage. If there's not a flaw in the reasoning here, that comes to equivalent of furious boosting you damage by on average 0.1(6.8+10+5)=2.2 dph. Bear in mind swords have the most generous + damage of all. It's still a great mod though, simply because when you're not hitting as much as you'd like it's still often better than sundering.

So, personally, in terms of high level pvp (issues such as shields switches are in somewhere like FA obviously not worth consideration, afaik basically no-one rolls them and most players seem to run staffs etc anyway). I've left out elemental as they apply to every weapon type and will be used against warriors and to keep casters if I noticed their shield is reducing my damage. In the case of swords it's usually irrelevent as I'm running conjures anyway and will only not use the elemental vs rangers (vamp for them on a conjure build).

Swords

ressure with furious/zealous and spike with vamp or sundering. Zealous mainly, obv conjure excluded.
Axes

ressure with sundering/vampiric/zealous and spike with vamp. Main depends a lot on build.
Hammers

ressure with sundering/furious and spike with vamp/sundering. Main depends a lot on build.

for pve, it's something like

swords:zealous (occasionally furious)
axes:zealous as I love soldier's strike but otherwise vamp
hammers:vamp

sundering's not great on axes but it's better than furious. Furious is best with swords and sometimes when your build is all about the spike and you're not that bothered about that extra bit of pressure.

Strength the attribute is very bad for the reasons covered. Enraging Charge and flail are probably the main things going for it atm, I'd be interested to see if you did an analysis of str vs elemental on a conjure warrior whether 12-12-3 or 12-11-6 would be optimum for dps rather than the standard (meets shield req).

bg_solidsnake · Jun 12, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

I like strenght and when i play my war i always go for 10 str + it helps on ur stances and the ability to survive.I've dueled against a war with only 3 strenght and he almost didnt do anything to me.

Avatara · Jun 12, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

strength would be useful if it gave you 1%-2% chance for double adrenalin on every hit.

God Apprentice · Jun 12, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

No... a ranger can't. Kill off his pet a few times taking it to 60dp and it'll die that frequently he'll need to keep ressing it to use RaO. RaO thumper is ridiculously energy intensive.

Very true. I think there are a lot of people who don't think to do that. I always try to kill RaO's pets it's an annoyance for them having to stop and rez

Jade Zephyr · Jun 12, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by B E A S T

Warriors have a low amount of energy for a reason. Zealous = Worst Mod

EDIT

And if you must have energy, use Warriors Endurance...or go play an ele!

You fail...
12345

Avatara · Jun 12, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

your build is wasted if you don't constantly utilize your energy. Zealous hilts allow you to use a lot more over time... in fact speed boosts repay them selfs.